Search: Incest with dads and their sons

This search just found me.  Regarding psychopathic fathers, this happens all the time.  Being in arrested development, the dads view this as the equivalent of childhood sex games.  It varies from such games to full sexual relations.  The sons often gain a taste for such activity and maintain same sex affairs on the side of normal heterosexual life stories.

I strongly suspect this happened to Rudy Giuliani, it would explain many things.  I am absolutely certain that his father was a psychopath.  The children of psychopaths tend to have deeply humiliated personalities with similar humiliation patterns.  They are very easy to recognize, though they can sometimes be mistaken for psychopaths themselves.  I also recommend Wayne Barrett’s book, Rudy! (

To those who claim psychopath is simply a term of denigration for jerks, read this search: son blackmailing mom into sex

My blog was found by this search.  I’ve never heard of this situation before, but it’s not really surprising.  The early phase of puberty takes place before the internalization of incest taboos.  Psychopaths live there, at that phase.

Blackmail is simply a huge problem.  Psychopaths love it, if it’s successful it’s a crime without consequence for the perp, the victim is drawn into the crime.  The victim by protecting themselves also protects the blackmailer.

I don’t think this situation will end well.  Dads aren’t slow, males are geared towards recognizing female infidelity and a partner’s lover — if they all live in the same home . . .

I certainly hope she doesn’t consider justifiable homicide, heck no, nosireebob, that would be a crime, not to mention wrong, just wrong.

Sex at point of blackmail is really rape.  We’re not talking jerks, we’re talking guys who’d rape their mothers.

Chased by ghosts — Mackenzie Phillips

John and daughter Mackenzie Phillips

John Phillips and daughter Mackenzie

Can Incest Be Consensual?

Mackenzie Phillips Highlights the Impact of Incest

When Mackenzie Phillips dropped her bombshell during an episode of Oprah, revealing that she had had an incestuous relationship with her father, John Phillips, for 10 years, controversy swirled. The revelation came on the heels of the publication of Phillips’ memoir “High on Arrival,” in which she accuses “Papa John” of The Mommas and the Papas of molesting her when she was 18.

Though Phillips says she doesn’t remember if the incident at age 18 was the first time her father acted inappropriately with her, she acknowledges the sexual relationship continued for another decade and eventually became consensual.  . . .

Thomas Nagy, Ph.D. . . . says . . . “When the victim encounters that abuser again in adulthood, in that moment, they’ve dissociated into an adolescent mindset again,” he points out. That’s why it’s so important for victims of abuse to seek and stick with therapy for the long haul. “These victims have to grow boundaries and learn how to find a sense of self again.”

“It’s always traumatic in the long run,” Nagy adds, whether the incest begins when a child is six or 17. “It’s child abuse, and there is no such thing as consensual sex with a child.”

No, incest can never be consensual — even if child is an excited participant.  Incest is the vampire father feeding off the child’s soul by abusing the psychologically normal and healthy “family romance.”

That said, when the child later works through the events, the child, now an adult, must acknowledge the participant aspect.  The situation is not expressed simply by the terms incest victim or survivor, incest participant is the usual reality.  (Incest rape, paradoxically, may be easier for the child to handle psychologically.  The monsterhood of the father would not be hidden in that case.)  The problem is that the child throughout her life is forever caught in the crossfire of love, desire, shame and humiliation — thus many spend their lives chased by psychological ghosts — expressed through drugs, affairs, broken marriages, etc.  Mackenzie Phillips is to be lauded for making her story public.

Failure of the adult incest victim to come to terms with the willing participant aspect will leave her prey to predators.  Sooner or later a sociopathic or other seducer will come along who senses the father’s approach.  The adult child will have no choice but to dance to the music.  In the psychological universe there are few things uglier than an adult incest victim discovering she’s still enslaved by the incest trap, years after thinking she was free.

Phillips says she doesn’t remember if the incident at age 18 was the first time” I believe she’s being untruthful.  One shouldn’t expect incest victims to be straightforward in divulging their stories.  Indeed she would sometimes tell relatives, then later claim she was joking.  Also it seems she is still protecting her father — who she still loves and whose love for her she still believes in.

Bijou was only 13 when her older sister told her the shocking story.   . . .   Her confusion was only compounded when “shortly there after Mackenzie told me it didn’t happen.”


The Mamas and the Papas singer Michelle Phillips, who married John in 1962, claims that Mackenzie revealed the affair in 1997 – but told her stepmom she was joking. “She called me back and said, ‘You know I’m joking,'”

An overview can be found here:

Finally I doubt very much that it is that rare for incest to continue into a woman’s adulthood.  Why should it stop?  We need a closer study of this occurrence.

Sociopathic throughlines

I’d like to look at the continuum from imprisoned failed sociopaths to SAPs (socially adept sociopaths).  Basically they are all adherents of the credo, ‘you call it cheating, I call it winning.’  The failed sociopaths have problems with the cheating part (i.e., getting caught), the SAPs can be phenomenal at it.

In my opinion across the spectrum they all have characteristics in common.  They are all like a child in a candy store.  Their wants are as big as their eyes, with the same childhood sense of entitlement.  They want everything they see.  A low level sociopath will simply reach out and start taking and end up in jail.  A SAP will be able to restrain this reaching until safe opportunities present themselves.  But the basic desires are identical. There is also a whole panoply of related arrested development characteristics.  In my opinion, all sociopaths are in a state of immature sexuality.  Essentially they never progress past childhood sex play, orgasms are simply thrown in.  Similarly, their personality, reasoning, moral, etc. development are also stunted.

Though they may not choose to do so, all sociopaths in my opinion see nothing intrinsically wrong with seducing a 13 year-old girl neighbor into prostitution, incest, “Dress Grey” raping of a straight or closeted gay buddy (i.e., individuals who would be unlikely to press charges due to the publicity), spreading AIDs with no concern, torturing a child in front of a parent, or a parent in front of a child, viewing others as tissue paper to be used and discarded, etc.  I believe this to be true no matter how well educated, well dressed or well spoken a sociopath may be.

What then separates the SAPs from the failed (and caught) sociopaths? I see the situation as being the balancing of two countervailing pressures.  One pressure, drive actually, is to reach out, take and dominate.  The other pressure is simply the need to get away with it, which has both internal and external aspects.  Failed sociopaths lack the internal resources to restrain themselves (apparently, some people, including many professional researchers, consider only these individuals to be true sociopaths — they couldn’t be more wrong).  Other sociopaths have the internal resources, but only if the external environment (i.e., the threat of some punishment) necessitates it.  The continuum is really a scale of talent at being hypocritical.  The advanced SAPs are simply magnificent hypocrites — able to bide their time, be patient, realistically assess their position in the food chain (the concept of the food chain is central to sociopath life stories), restrain their arrogance, desire for dominance and rudeness and wait for opportunities without consequence for indulging their sociopathic wants, etc.  Hypocrisy is simply their main lifetool, as swimming is the main lifetool for a fish.

It is always educational, when evaluating a possible sociopath, to note how the individual consistently behaves around those “lower in the food chain” — it can be quite amazing.  If a superior is a devotee, sadly they will often believe the sociopath and not their eyes.

Apparently, the current rage in the field is the argument over whether sociopathy is a normal-to-special-trait continuum (similar to tallness) or a present/not present trait (such as blue eyes).   It is the latter.  The only way that so-called scientists can make the former argument is that they have no idea of what they are talking about.  See the story of the five blind men and the elephant.  This is quite apparent from the amazing quote from J. Seabrook’s “Suffering Souls, the Search for the Roots of Psychopathy” in The New Yorker, “Unlike most academic psychopathy researchers, Kiehl has spent many hours in the company of his subjects. When he meets colleagues at conferences, he told me, “they always ask, ‘What are they like?’ These are guys who have spent twenty years studying psychopaths and never met one.”

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Post Redux: Reflections on Josef Fritzl and Incest (5/23/08)

Fritzl, of course, is the Austrian accused of imprisoning his daughter in a cellar and fathering a family with her (three of the children also imprisoned, three raised in the aboveground household), BBC. All incest fathers are vampire fathers, they truly are draining the child’s lifeforce, but this is absolutely the most extreme case in my memory.

The question here is whether Fritzl is a sociopath.  Roughly what I do is check facts and behavior against an informal checklist and then attempt to flesh out the individual and understand his motivations.  For those interested there are well-thought out formal checklists for sociopathy.   The linked Mask of Sanity lays out a checklist in Section III, Clinical Profile, pgs 337 – 366, or see the Table of Contents.  Robert Hare, author of Without Conscience, has a formal diagnostic one, which can be used informally by anybody, in my opinion — not to diagnose, but in an attempt to understand behavior.  This seems to be a reasonable overview: PCL Overview. His own site is

Fritzl certainly appears to be a sociopath.  There is no internal prohibition against incest for sociopathic fathers at all. Non-sociopathic incest fathers need to overcome their conscience and a very severe prohibition against such acts.  For sociopathic incest fathers it is merely childhood sexplay, as is all their sex.  They are absolutely, totally unaware of any “soul effect” on the daughter (or often, the son).  The sociopathic sense of entitlement is absolute — check.  Urge to dominate — check.  Lying ability — check.  Telling his wife the imprisoned daughter had run away and joined a cult.  Explaining three foundlings to the authorities and his wife (the three infants he brought up from the cellar).  This ability to lie while appearing totally sincere, with complete eye contact with the target to be duped is one of the key sociopathic abilities.  Self confidence — check.  Arrogance — check.  Optimism — check.  No remorse or guilt — check.

I understand he’s been complaining that his wife hasn’t visited him.  Sociopaths don’t understand the “beyond the pale” aspect of their extreme behavior.  For them it’s not beyond the pale, it’s not extreme.  Presumably they believe all of us are capable of the same behavior or would behave the same if we thought we could get away with it.  So now he’s hurt and perplexed that his wife doesn’t visit.

It’s reported that the possibility that he also molested his 19 year old daughter/grand-daughter, Kerstin, is also being investigated.  (It was the hospitalization of Kerstin that exposed the whole situation.)  It would be shocking if he hadn’t.

Incest Dad represents self in court, cross-examines daughter

Rabbi Israel Weingarten cross-examines daughter at molest trial

A rabbi charged with molesting his daughter subjected her to hours of cringe-worthy cross-examination Tuesday in Brooklyn Federal Court.

Israel Weingarten, 59, who chose to represent himself against charges that could send him to prison for 20 years, rambled on all afternoon as his daughter looked away, wiped tears and struggled to understand what he was asking.

“Do I have to answer?” the now-27-year-old asked Judge John Gleeson in a trembling voice before gathering the strength to shoot back when asked why she didn’t complain sooner.

“My feeling of your molesting me was at most fear and blackmail and years of torture,” she said, eyes widening as she wiped tears off her cheeks. “Fear because you hurt me because I told my mother. Didn’t I get hit enough?”

Father Charged With Murder, Rape, Incest Arraigned

Cass County prosecutors on Friday announced charges against a man for allegedly raping his teenage daughter and killing at least one of the babies.

Danial M. Rinehart, 47, was charged with one count of second-degree murder, endangering the welfare of a child, statutory rape, two counts of incest and two counts of abandonment of a corpse.

Authorities allege Rineha More..rt fathered four children with his then 13-year-old daughter. The girl is now 19. Only one of the girl’s children is alive — a 3-year-old who is now in custody of the state.

Possible sociopathic elements of the above stories

Depravity of both crimes and/or situation, though to sociopaths incest is the equivalent of the sex games of childhood, though with dominance and orgasms added.

Rabbi Weingarten representing himself.  Their ego seems to drive them to testify or even represent themselves in court and it seems they can’t imagine losing.  I would say their optimism is often pathological.

A strangeness in reasoning.  After his wife testifies of her discovery of the incest, Weingarten “complained to Judge John Gleeson that the translator misunderstood Faige’s answer about his father’s ailing health at the time of the alleged sexual abuse.  Gleeson was incredulous. “And you think that was the important part?” he shot back.” It seems that since the crime is of no real significance to them, they can’t sort out what’s truly significant or not.

Israel Weingarten is a rabbi.  The clergy, of all faiths, are an excellent hideout for those who excel at being wolves among sheep.

Danial Rinehart seemed to live as a drifter and freeloader.  His mother:  “Dolores Rinehart described her son as a drifter.  “They’ve been on the run. Dan’s run from Social Security — Dan’s run from everything,” she said. “He didn’t want to work.””

Reflections on incest

Incest varies from rape to seduction, usually closer to seduction.  It is after all using the human body to be close to another that one wants very much to be close to and using the body in ways that it is designed to be close to another.  In a way, the young women in these cases are better off due to the crude and obvious criminal nature of their fathers’ actions — the evil of the vampire father is obvious and the element of self betrayal is nearly absent.  The element of self betrayal and the horribly conflicted emotions are what cause such psychic damage in incest situations, in my opinion.  A father who portrays the seduction of his daughter(s) as being “one of those wrong things that people just do” can be even more damaging to a daughter’s psyche than an incest closer to rape.

The focus on preventing incest must rest on appealing to the fathers, in my opinion.  No daughter can resist a father so inclined, the situation is too close to the normal and healthy “family romance” or so I’ve heard from incest victims and reports from incest group therapy.  Furthermore, incest is not going to occur in a healthy family with a healthy marriage so relying on the mother to protect the daughters is problematical.  For example, an abused wife who cannot protect herself certainly cannot protect the daughter.  Or a woman in a long marriage to a sociopath has had her own personality degraded.  Or the incest occurs at the same point where the wife feels she may be losing her sexual allure.  If the father’s sexual charge from the incest rebounds in the marriage the wife may be even more reluctant to peer behind closed doors.  The “club-over-the-head” to prevent incest by both sociopathic and nonsociopathic fathers must be the fear of discovery and subsequent destruction of reputation of the fathers in my opinion.  Cases such as these should receive prominent coverage.

[March 13 edit] Father too close to daughter is one of the searches that found this post.  Basically I’d say believe the hairs at the back of your neck.  If a situation feels wrong, say the observed physical contact, it probably is.  A family is such an inviolable unit that it is very hard for an outsider to have much influence and a “doting parent” is considered fine and acceptable.

Assuming the search was written by a mother I’d suggest paying a lot of attention to nonverbal cues.  For example, before normal accompanied errands or ferrying the child back and forth from activities (particularly at night), do the child and the father show a heightened state of excitedness?  If you insert yourself in such a trip is there a sudden change in mood or sudden irritability?  The same question if you arrange for the child and father never to be alone?  Does the father become and stay angry?

If the situation is as you fear, do not enter into a situation of “living with craziness,” which is sadly too easy to allow to happen.  Both of the mothers in the above news stories did, though fortunately Faige Weingarten is supporting her daughter now.  A child only knows that they are entitled to their emotions if an adult mirrors them (read Alice Miller,  The father has to be brought to justice to protect the child, even though this will mean destroying the facade of the  family (the family is actually already destroyed by the father’s actions).  Failure to do so will leave the child prey to evil manipulations throughout the child’s life.

Incest children (boys also, but most comments here are geared toward girls) grow up with an inability to judge trustworthiness in their relationships — both male and female relationships.  They’ll be taken advantage of over and over again, often by fake female friends.  Girls will sometimes go into prostitution — ‘Nothing wrong with my Dad.  See it’s just like shaking hands,’ and they will effectively Lucia di Lammermoor themselves (drive themselves insane by having sex against the wishes of the soul, effectively taking part in their own rape).  Or an incest victim/participant may go narcissistic — making the calculation that ‘If I didn’t have any emotions, I wouldn’t feel the shame’ and accept only the will and mind as being of the self, emotions then being split off as a manipulation from outside.

(Narcissism is a huge topic I should explore further.  In brief, rigid narcissism is frequently confused with sociopathy.  Both live in a universe of one, are incredibly selfish, have no concern for others’ feelings and can end relationships/marriages as though turning a page in a book.  However, narcissists actually have deep emotions and a soul, they just deny them — sociopaths have neither.  Narcissism is a deep psychological choice, sociopathy is genetically determined.)

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The engine driving increased public awareness of sociopathy: personal experience

The following websites are examples of individuals being driven to share their knowledge, come to grips with their experiences or warn the unwary.

Dealing With Diabolical Danielle Weblog
A “Beware of Poison Ivy” site.

Holy Water Salt
a blog about irradiating evil through “light”

Both a personal experience and general knowledge site.

Charmed, I’m Sure
Seems to be notes of personal experience intended to be used in a documentary.

Questions About the Book
The emotional devastation of falling for an emotionless sociopathic mimic.

Lovefraud Blog
A big get together — shared stories, outrages, speculations.  The testimonies here may seem unbelievable to the inexperienced or uninitiated but they’re very real.  A few quotes below (emphasis added):

I too raised a psychopath, who has murdered once and tried to murder me. I also raised two young men who are fine men.  . . .

. . .

This past year when my P son and his cronies were trying to kill me (at least, but probably other members of the family would have been targeted after I was gone and when I fled and they couldn’t find me, they tried to kill my son C) in any case, I WAS FREAKING OUT, TOTALLY INSANE, UNABLE TO THINK OR FUNCTION. . . .

. . .

I understand the pain of realizing (finally) that your child, the child you planned for, gave birth to, nursed and loved is a monster beyond redemption. I understand the emotional and yes, PHYSICAL PAIN, of turning your back on that child (even though they are now an adult) and emotionally burying that child in your heart, as if they were dead, to at least preserve the memories you had of when the child was an infant, a toddler, and a young child that was the shining light of your life. I sort of feel like my child died and his organs were donated, but the MAN who has his organs is a monster, and not my son, any more than it would be if his kidneys or his eyes had been donated instead of his whole body.

The memories of the “morphing” years when he quit being the shining child and became the monstrous adolescent, then murdering man, those were the most difficult years of my life and I held on to toxic hope for 20 years after I should have “let go”—but I guess I thought the letting go was so painful I couldn’t handle it, but I know that the NOT LETTING GO was MORE PAINFUL and became so painful it was LET GO OR DIE. I chose, finally, to let go and live. It was so hard, harder than anything I have ever done.

Unlike Todd, I have my own monster out of my house, but I keep the guns CLOSE because I never know as long as he is alive when he might send another of his friends to try to kill me, for revenge, if no other reason. Both of my other sons and I are armed, or within reach of a gun at all times, day and night

She uses the kids as pawns. She molested her son, he told his therapist (at 4 years old). Drew pictures of her vagina, doesn’t like hair in his mouth, wet the bed, the whole nine yards. She got out of it. We’ve been in custody hearings for a year and a half. The judge feels SORRY FOR HER!!!

pathwhisperer says:

I’m with Holywater (10/10 9:53 am) when she says:

“I think once you’ve been around a p you know the difference- they’re not insane, and once the mask slips, or you catch a glimpse, it’s nothing you’ve ever seen before unless of course you’ve known other p’s.

I recently was asked to prove my p was/is unfit for a position, nothing I said/experienced matter…lucky for me I track him- so I proved through concrete evidence “he says one thing, does another”

Recognising a p is not rocket science.”

It’s that “oh, moment” you look for . . . . To decide if someone may be a s/p I at first follow a rough checklist but then I wait for a gestalt type emotional/mental “click” or “oh, moment.” It is only at that point, if the answer is yes, that I can say ‘yes, that person is a s/p.’ And I agree it is not rocket science, anyone with normal emotional intelligence can do it.

I also agree that to communicate with others you have to concentrate on the s/p’s behavior. The “oh, moment” of recognition is not transferable to others. They have to go through their own emotional/mental processes to get there.

The New Yorker writes about researchers’ struggle to study psychopaths

. . . Although the story is comprehensive, one of the points made me think that we at Lovefraud have a better understanding of psychopaths than researchers.

“Unlike most academic psychopathy researchers, Kiehl has spent many hours in the company of his subjects. When he meets colleagues at conferences, he told me, “they always ask, ‘What are they like?’ These are guys who have spent twenty years studying psychopaths and never met one.” . . .

This is scarymany researchers in psychopathy never met one? We should consider ourselves better informed, because we’ve all had extremely close encounters with these predators. And we know exactly how the ones who are not in jail behave.